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Hypolite Petovan via Friendica Support friendica (via ActivityPub)
HI !Friendica Support,

I've been recently reminded of the ambiguity of the dislike reaction feature. @Spencer added a dislike on a post of mine with a negative tone. Then he felt the need to explicit the meaning of the dislike in a comment.

I'd like to remove this feature for 3 reasons:
  • No other protocol supports it.
  • It's too ambiguous and negative with harassment potential.
  • It would visually clear some space in the post link list for people not using it like me.



What do you think?
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Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
I thought it was clever too, but dislike usage is awkward and limited to Friendica network, which doesn’t match our network universalist philosophy.

I‘m not against emoji reactions even though I probably wouldn’t use them myself, but I’m against the idea of replacement. The Dislike removal shouldn’t be tied with the emoji reaction addition.
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Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
"Dislike" used to be a user-controlled feature before it was moved to the core on November 2018 and released in version 2019.01 according to a spreadsheet I created and where a bunch of people voted.
Dieser Beitrag wurde bearbeitet. (4 Jahre her)
Darth Tiktaalik friendica (via ActivityPub)
Never been a fan of likes/dislikes. Just feels so wrong to give a thumbs up on a news story about a horrible tragedy.
Alexander friendica (via ActivityPub)
Same here. I like the function but not what it is called.
Alexander friendica (via ActivityPub)
I don't think there is any more harassment potential than in comments, especially since there is no notification but I am not seeing much use for it as no one else supports it.

I am not opposed to the idea but it just doesn't get traction so perhaps it should become optional as in theory some community might want to use it.
Alexander friendica (via ActivityPub)
And in many cases the comment would not have been made without the click on the dislike button.
I am not sure I follow you here, please explain.

As I understand it initially the purpose of "likes" was to remove the need to write similar comments like "thank you" and "me too". And it was quite a relief. I can see "dislike" serving similar purpose (at least most people think of "dislike" in this way and not as "angry/sad like" like @Michael Vogel described). If people want to elaborate there is no need to "like" but some do anyway to emphasize the message or to get the post added to their "liked" list so they can find it later.

But I don't get how clicking the button provokes the comment and why they wouldn't write it anyway since they clearly want to speak up.
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Airin Hanami friendica (via ActivityPub)
I don't see any particular evil in dislike feature itself and would keep it.
Also, huge "+1" for emoji reactions support.
Alexander friendica (via ActivityPub)
@Tobias, sounds like people are just extremely confused about what message "dislike" button conveys. If "like" can be confusing only in certain edge cases (like tragic events), with "dislike" you always have to elaborate.

This is the reason I never use it (not just on Friendica but pretty much anywhere).
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Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
I fully agree with Alexander, you can easily leave a like without commenting, but not so much with dislike. It is the same conclusion @Spencer and I came to recently and my main motivation to remove the feature.
Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
I arrive at this conclusion because of the confusion of the double negative which doesn't happen with Likes.

We can talk about removing the Like feature but it will have to be for different reasons than the Dislike one.
Alexander friendica (via ActivityPub)
If I recall correctly it is optional there.
Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
At least Pleroma has emoji reactions.
Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
It’s good if the meaning isn’t confusing to you, but this isn’t the case for everybody either.

I personally never understand a Like on a terrible news as an evil enjoyment of the news itself. I can do that because Like is a positive action by default, and you can’t subvert its meaning without adding some context. So for terrible news, I will understand a Like as a support.
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Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
It’s possible, but unlikely and impossible to guess without context.
Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
I do believe we made the wrong decision, this whole thread is about how we made a wrong decision!
Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
It's a possible interpretation, but if the Dislike wasn't available, I believe you would be less likely to feel that way.
Alexander friendica (via ActivityPub)
Myself I like upvote/downvote the best.

Upvote means "I appreciate you posting this, great content, I agree" and such. Downvote means "Ugh, this is not for me".

It is feedback on content, not emotional expression. For that there are comments.

Also this way likes/dislikes can be used for further processing. E.g. if I downvote a post, don't subscribe me to it or maybe even hide it from my stream. If I like it then subscribe me for activity on it.
Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
I use the Like button to mean a read receipt when I don't have anything to add, this wouldn't work as much.
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Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
How many people (re)discovered the Dislike feature thanks to this thread?
Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
Same (greater?) ambiguity with downvote, are you downvoting the content or its author? No way to tell without context. Upvoting is "safer". Hacker News, Stack Overflow and Reddit all use down votes and I regularly see comments from OP asking the meaning of downvotes since it's anonymous. So even with an accompanying comment it would still be confusing and irritating.
Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
Of course you're free to understand a "like" as its first degree meaning even if the context shows there was no other possible interaction, but at this point it's a "you" problem we can't fully accommodate. Incidentally I believe emoji reactions would be a better solution for you in this case.
Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
As some people pointed out in this thread, "Like" is used for multiple uses (read later, read receipt), not all of them having to do with the first degree meaning of "Like". In this sense "Dislike" doesn't make much sense as a strict opposition to "Like" in its first meaning.
SoNak friendica (via ActivityPub)
I would read a "Like" as "I am with you". So whether you write something positive or negative it says "I look at it in a similar way you do". This could be a statement like "Hey cool, i have a broken leg and will stay at home on my sofa" or "My next long planned trip is cancelled because of a broken leg".
On the other hand a "Like" for "Chelsea Manning under arrest" depends on whether the author is Amnesty International or the actual Potus.

In the end a "Like" says something about me. Same fo "Dislike", but maybe a litte more complicated.
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Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
Because of the extremely limited range of available reactions. and the unlikelihood of such a meaning. Both combined means that you can safely assume good faith from everyone who added a "Like" on your broken leg post.

Which means even if someone actually meant to show they enjoy your predicament, they couldn't adequately convey it with a "Like" only.
Alexander friendica (via ActivityPub)
For me downvoting always felt as content quality feedback and nothing else. But I suppose someone might see it differently.

And on the other hand do we really need this on social networks? In places like Reddit this has practical function of filtering and refining the best content. Not perfect, can be misused but it has a purpose.

But isn't social networking different? What is the point of downvoting (or disliking) here? The authors here are generally not in search of truth or public approval, they just express themselves. Most probably don't mind criticism (I certainly don't) but what message do dislikes convey? That someone just disliked my cat or political statement? What should I do with this information? Be upset? Go dislike something back? Stop being myself?

This probably has value for professional bloggers but not ordinary people.
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Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
Because it isn't the same meaning? Like has a positive tone, dislike has a negative tone.
Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
Again, if you can't grasp that a specific word can have multiple meanings depending on context, while also having a primary acception with a definite positive or negative tone, there is nothing meaningful I can add to this conversation. "Like" and "Dislike" are different words with different meaning with different tones. The difference in tone sets the difference in usage as well.

In the four years I've been using Friendica with the dislike feature, nobody has commented on one of my post to clarify a "Like" they added because they weren't sure of the reception. However it happened last month with "Dislike".

There is a difference between the two cases and I'm running out of arguments to help you see it.
Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
It's true but meaningless in the larger scheme. Not all Friendica posts are that factually binary.
Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
Concerning the "harassment potential": I've got the opinion that you cannot solve social problems with technology.
It's true but technology can still enable or damper negative behaviors. Twitter's all-public centralized model definitely enabled mass pile-on, while Mastodon's choice to not support quote-boost makes it slightly harder to add a snide remark to a boosted toot. Sometimes it's all it takes to prevent a toxic behavior from scaling/spreading.

This is a similar situation: removing the "Dislike" button wouldn't solve online animosity, but it would remove an easy one-click outlet for it, increasing the effort threshold for its expression.
Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
Yes, but do we want to make them a priority feature-wise?
Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
"in the larger scheme". This means it is statistically insignificant. It doesn't happen often enough to warrant a specific treatment. Its very low likelihood makes it irrelevant regarding the dislike feature removal question.
Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
I can't check right now, but I will make the prediction that the dislikes on this thread alone amount for 90% of the total amount of dislikes I've received on my node for the last year.
Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
Maybe, but the final decision still shouldn't be based on sport result posts.
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Alexander friendica (via ActivityPub)
Also not a single dislike used 😀
Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
Restore the user-controlled additional feature for dislikes. It would just hide the button but still allow display of received dislikes.
Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
This never had to do with my own feelings. The removal idea was actually sparked by @Spencer ’s feelings which are shared by other people in this thread.

So this isn’t personal, but it is about feelings and how prominent they are among Friendica users. Tobias’ are very specific and probably can’t be catered to by a solution that assumes meaning depends on context, which it generally does.
Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
Although this wouldn’t prevent harassment through dislikes.
Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
Even if my node is among the top 25% most active Friendica nodes?
Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
I've created a week-long public poll to synthesize the community's opinions. I've included as many outcomes that I could think of: https://nextcloud.mrpetovan.com/index.php/apps/polls/s/WYtWDGTxR32CTVQC

Please add all your preferred choices.
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Alexander friendica (via ActivityPub)
Voted for "user setting" and by that I mean users being able to turn on and off both the button and counts. It should still work on protocol level, just not showing if disabled.

Node admin should control the default. Default works for anonymous accounts.
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Steffen K9 🐰 friendica (via ActivityPub)
@Hypolite Petovan Fun fact: The 'dislike' was a user setting some time ago. When it was set to 'disabled' you didn't see the button and you didn't see the dislikes from others. Then - as a first step - the display of dislikes was always on no matter how the user setting was. And then - after a lengthy discussion and a vote! - the setting was removed and the 'dislike' button was switched on for everybody.
Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
I'm painfully aware of the history, I personally made the poll that eventually made it a core feature and I even voted in favor of it at the time!
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Michael Vogel friendica (via ActivityPub)
Concerning different possible configuration options, these ones would be possible and had a completely different impact:
- Don't show the "dislike" button, but display received dislikes
- Don't show the "dislike" button and ignore received dislikes
- Don't show the "dislike" button and count received dislikes as likes
- Show the "dislike" button and ignore received dislikes
- Show the "dislike" button and count received dislikes as likes
Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
I most certainly didn't think about counting received dislikes as likes. This crosses for me a very weird line about changing the meaning of a received message.
Marco R. friendica
I'm for keeping it. Its the nearest thing to a poll we have. There is also an API for dislikes which I use. So if you change the code please tell the client programmer in time.
Steffen K9 🐰 friendica (via ActivityPub)
@Hypolite Petovan
TL;DR
Remove the dislike and introduce emoji reactions instead. 😀 See mastodom and github for example.
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SoNak friendica (via ActivityPub)
..then i need a user setting for switching emojis off.
I just do not want to see them, it's alienware and destroys my eyes.
Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
Not a fan either but I can see the appeal.
SoNak friendica (via ActivityPub)
true (sigh)
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Alexander friendica (via ActivityPub)
Yes, this is much needed to.
They are super ugly 😀

There is no escape from Unicode emoji though 🙃
silverwizard friendica (via ActivityPub)
I mean, you can use a font that only implements UTF-8 and stops after that
Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
By all means, the poll URL is public, you can share it wherever you want with hashtags if it's that important to you. There is enough activity on this thread to have a pretty good idea of the general opinion about this specific question.

And people left the project because they wanted to leave the project. I didn't want nor force them to leave. I'm not perfect but I won't be what you want me to be. You aren't what 'd like you to be either but I'm not making a public deal about it. Just leave it at that.
Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
This isn't the Friendica Admin forum, this is the Friendica Support forum. Does this change anything to what you thought about the potential reach of this poll?
SoNak friendica (via ActivityPub)
@Hypolite Petovan @hoergen on Friendica

Hey guys, without having any experience with such a situation i would say, this support-forum is the best place to publish the poll.
Here in the forum you find exactly those users, who are interested in issues like this. And you reach all of them, regardless whom they are following.

What could be done is another separate post here with hashtags. But that's it, isn't it?
Any public post will fade away in the gobal timeline and reaches only that users, who are already following Hypolite.

At this point a pinned post on top of the forum would be great.
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Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
Can @Steffen K9 🐰 can pin a post in the support forum?
Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
There are less answers on the poll than people who interacted in this thread, I'd like everyone to be able to express their opinion, please participate in the poll: https://nextcloud.mrpetovan.com/index.php/apps/polls/s/WYtWDGTxR32CTVQC
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Michael Vogel friendica (via ActivityPub)
I guess a fresh post will be better, since I can imagine that several persons already muted this thread because of the high intensity.
Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
I thought you just wanted to change the label but keep the same message structure.
Marco R. friendica
Dislike is a valid actitivystreams2 activity: https://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-vocabulary/#dfn-dislike. Other ActivityPub systems might implement it in the future.
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Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
@Michael Vogel mentioned it as well and I crossed it out from the list of reasons I wanted to remove it from Friendica but maybe the edit doesn't propagate to the forum because I don't own the post anymore.